Response to a review from Genericrandom on FFnet's version of Decayed

[rex_sun]

Y'all know me, I like it when folks whip me into shape. Ow! Feel free, f-list, to ignore this post entirely. I am inviting a certain reviewer to speak with me. I hope this person comes, really, and I also hope this person is not scared off by the tl;dr. But if any of y'all would like to register your two cents, please, feel free to jump right in. (:

I received this review on FFnet for Decayed:


This is quite the offering.

First of all, I don't really think /Decayed/ is as grimdark as you seem to think it is. Some of the imagery is certainly disturbing and the psychological implications are /horrible/ but you have to remember that /Code Geass/ for all that it was a seinen mecha anime was really very gritty at its core. And I've read much, much worse. So perhaps, it's me? Whatever.

There are two large problems I have with /Decayed/. Probably the biggest problem I have while reading /Decayed/, is that you took away one of Lelouch's biggest character flaws and Zero's greatest strengths in a single move. Lelouch and Zero do not *care* if someone dies for them. It's probably Lelouch's second biggest character flaw and something that makes Zero such an efficent and dangerous commander. If you don't matter to Lelouch your death is a statistic and a fact, nothing more or less. I don't think Lelouch even called out Suzaku's name in the beginning of the show, and when ol' what's his foot died fighting Rolo in R2 right after Zero's memories return, he got something to the effect of a 'I won't let you die in vein.' if I remember right. When his associates and subordinates die, Lelouch is more upset about his planning failures or the loss of something that was 'his'. Even the death
of Shirley's father only bothered him because it had such an affect on one of Lelouch's friends(possessions).

Only three deaths in the entire show that I can think of really had a lasting affect on Zero. His Mother's, Shirley's and Nunnaly's (presumed) death. He was upset about Euphy, but he had something else to focus on right away. Lelouch cared very little for means/events and focused much more on his goals and results. Throughout both seasons, the only time he lost sight of those was when he thought his only real reason, Nunnaly, died. Kallen's death would likely have had a similar affect, had it occurred and CC's memory loss was a blow, but he worked through that as well.

The second issue which is also great, is that Lelouch really and truly was straight as an arrow. Everything he did in his whole life was pretty much because of or for a woman. /Everything/. He had a mild Oedipus complex (more mother worship then sexual/romantic-love I think though) which was triggered/fueled by his father, and he eventually took that to its ultimate conclusion and killed his dad. When his mother chose his father over him and his sister though, he discarded her as well. Furthermore every man that factored heavily in his life was an enemy by their own choices. His father betrayed and discarded him (regardless of what Charles and Marianne thought). Suzaku betrayed him several times although they did ultimately ended as allies it was only when Suzaku came back to Lelouch, Zero had already offered Suzauku a place at least once and maybe twice. Ohugi betrayed him. Schinzel feared and hated him at least as much as he loved him. Rolo was bat-shit crazy and betrayed him frequently and Jeremiah wasn't really a major factor at all.

To change Lelouch's personality in such a fundamental way without any form of justification or explanation stretches my suspension of disbelief past the breaking point.

What comes after your incredibly broken setup, however, is often simply marvelous.

Again, it's completely unbelievable to me because although he occasionally needed help getting back on his feet (see: refrain attempt) Lelouch never once truly stopped moving towards his goal and his reason no matter the cost to anything else as we see at the end of R1. Even authoring his own death in front of the whole world by the hand of his best friend to achieve those goals. Penance? Yes. Escape? Likely. But if it hadn't have worked, or if it had required him living forever, you can bet it would have occurred differently.

Your well articulated descent in a spiral towards a wholly believable madness is /excellent/ however. If I can imagine a Lelouch lacking the strength of character that he had in canon then I can easily see him slipping down this very path or one similar enough to not matter. It's pretty spectacular.

Furthermore with the lack of Lancelot the White Knight(mare) to oppose him and being cut off from Nunnaly like he was (the /ONLY/ reason I can actually buy him collapsing like a house of cheap cards) the differences in events, such as capturing Cornelia and agreeing to marry Kaguya after such a stunning victory that came with such heavy repercussions... it's glorious. I really rather want to see a story that takes that part especially seriously (not tragically, but seriously).

tl;dr Your story is an interesting and enthralling chain of events that is set in motion by blatantly and inexplicably ignoring fundamental aspects of the main character, in my ne'er to be humble opinion.

Great writing though.

I am so happy to get such a brutal review. Without joking, I smiled when I read it. I appreciate it rather a lot. It also made me think. I think I might agree with some of the things you say, but I also take issue with a few right off the bat. So, if it pleases you, let us discuss this. Please note that I am myself a blunt communicator and, as friends and family point out, tactless, clipped, and harsh. Please know that it is not my intention to be a stubborn ass, though that does end up happening most of the time. It is also not my intention to be rude or ungrateful. I approach this matter happily and eager to explore. (Also, I am very poorly organized! Excuse!)

I will discuss your points, in no particular order and in various shades of agreement and disagreement and hopefully amiability (with an exception):

1. That in your opinion Decayed is not really that grim and dark.
2. That you believe Suzaku's death would not have been so big a factor for Lelouch, and that it could not compare to the deaths of Shirley's or his mother's.
3. The passing mention you made that you believe Kallen's death would have impacted Lelouch more than Suzaku's.
4. That you believe separation from Nunally is the only thing that could make Lelouch collapse the way he does in Decayed.
5. Your belief that Lelouch is heterosexual, and to write him otherwise is a flaw in characterization.
6. Your desire to see some of the events in a different setting.
7. And finally, I will thank you for the compliments you paid me!

Let us begin.

1.You believe that Decayed is not that grimdark. // "I don't really think /Decayed/ is as grimdark as you seem to think it is. Some of the imagery is certainly disturbing and the psychological implications are /horrible/ but you have to remember that /Code Geass/ for all that it was a seinen mecha anime was really very gritty at its core. And I've read much, much worse. So perhaps, it's me? Whatever."

This is quite fair and probably even true. On this point I will concede "different strokes for different folks". When writing Decayed, I felt a little down, but I never thought it was really disturbing. I did think it was grim in that it was a story without hope, and I did think it was dark because the subject matter isn't at all light-- but I was not disturbed by it when I wrote it.

However, on my original posting of Decayed, I received comments such as "I am so glad I finished eating before I read that." and "most disturbing...fic I've read on the meme. You have creeped me out..." and I do believe, when discussing it with a few people, they suggested I dial some things back.

So some people, you and myself included, are really not that bothered by the disturbing imagery. But some folks really are bothered, so for their sake, I warn them on my FFnet posting.

2. That you believe Suzaku's death would not have been so big a factor for Lelouch, and that it could not compare to the deaths of Shirley's or his mother's.

Here are some quick-fire responses to some of your points before I give a meatier response:

"If you don't matter to Lelouch your death is a statistic and a fact, nothing more or less."
--&& Of course. But Suzaku does matter to Lelouch. Incredibly much.

I don't think Lelouch even called out Suzaku's name in the beginning of the show
--&& You are mistaken here. A quick skim to the important parts of the first episode will show you that he does, in fact, call out for Suzaku, among other things.

"...when ol' what's his foot died fighting Rolo in R2 right after Zero's memories return, he got something to the effect of a 'I won't let you die in vein.' "
--&& (I lol'd @ "ol' what's his foot". Then I srs'd.) While Lelouch was subtly more fond of him than of other Black Knights, Urabe was still a pawn and he could not hold a sputtering little candle to the importance of Suzaku to Lelouch.

"Even the death of Shirley's father only bothered him because it had such an affect on one of Lelouch's friends(possessions)."
--&& True. But I hope you're not comparing Shirley's father to Suzaku. Lelouch never even met Shirley's father.

Now I think you are severely underestimating Suzaku's role in Lelouch's life. Canonically he is extremely dear to Lelouch; Lelouch several times jeopardizes what needs to be done in order to save Suzaku. He refuses, at many crucial times in S1, to give the order to kill Suzaku. Time and again he risks his life and the life of his pawns to save Suzaku. He expresses great emotional pain to know Suzaku fights against him. (See: Zero rescues Suzaku from execution; Zero's shock when Suzaku is revealed during Todoh's breakout; the scene in which Suzaku and Lelouch almost have an argument about Zero which culminates in Lelouch vehemently hissing disapproval for the expressed idea that Suzaku belongs with Britannia; Zero puts himself in danger by attempting to capture Suzaku at Shikinejima; Zero puts himself in danger to personally aid Suzaku at Kyushu; the (admittedly ambiguous) hurt when even Nunally acknowledges that Suzaku and Euphemia are a team; Lelouch's refusal to use Geass on Suzaku until it was absolutely necessary only to save Suzaku's life; and Lelouch's desire to team up with Suzaku even as Suzaku has a gun trained on him in the final episode. And that's just season one.)

If you say Lelouch has no extreme emotion for Suzaku's "death" in the first few episodes of canon, sorry, you've just forgotten I suppose. In the first episode there are three main reactions to Suzaku's supposed death: first, Lelouch screams out his name when Suzaku is first shot, and then stares in frozen horror. Later Lelouch stops running for his life, emotionally overwhelmed. He clutches his face and leans against the wall for support and yells, "They even killed Suzaku!" Then again he thinks of Suzaku in his despair as he reaches, hand shaking, for C.C., as he feels his life about to end.

The true beginning of Lelouch's descent in Decayed begins, in canon timeline, directly after episode three. But unlike in episode three, Lelouch did not find Suzaku to be alive. Instead the death of his friend washed over him like the tide rises: slowly powerful, and unstoppered by the relief of Suzaku's survival.

So I suppose I am saying that you are wrong, that I believe Suzaku's death could definitely rank in importance right up there with Shirley's or Nunally's. BUT. But. I CAN use your views.

How your review helps me:  Could I have made the narration of Lelouch's feelings about Suzaku's death different? Could I have altered them somehow to subtly reference the difference between canon and Decayed? OR, indeed... would Suzaku's death not have affected Lelouch the way it did in Decayed? It would have affected him, that I stand by, but would his path have differed after all? Is it unrealistic, how far I took it? If Decayed was perfect, if my writing was perfect, I would not have to defend my views here, so it is your doubt that makes me look back and see what I can change.

3. The passing mention you made that you believe Kallen's death would have impacted Lelouch more than Suzaku's. // "Throughout both seasons, the only time he lost sight of those was when he thought his only real reason, Nunnaly, died. Kallen's death would likely have had a similar affect, had it occurred..."

I do not have a strong opinion on part of this. Many folks I know think the Lelouch/Kallen angle in canon was absolutely forced and false. I do not believe that personally. I neither support nor cockblock this pairing. It is something I occassionally enjoy but do not actively look for.

Is Kallen important to Lelouch? Yeah, I'd say so. I'd say, even ignoring the shippy rhetoric, Lelouch is fond of Kallen, proud of Kallen, protective/possessive of Kallen. Lelouch would bend very far for Kallen, would do quite a lot to save and protect (re: her capture by the Chinese) and encourage her. He respects her, he likes her genuinely as a friend and maybe a lot more.

Is Kallen more important to Lelouch than Suzaku is? No. Absolutely not. I see no evidence of this. She might, if you stretch it and chose to interpret canon that Lelouch was in love with her-- then she miiiiight be equally important. But Kallen is not more important to Lelouch than Suzaku.

4. That you believe separation from Nunally is the only thing that could make Lelouch collapse the way he does in Decayed. // "being cut off from Nunnaly like he was (the /ONLY/ reason I can actually buy him collapsing like a house of cheap cards)"

I would like to read more of your thoughts on this. In canon I think we see, whether Lelouch is with Nunally or not, a marked decline in Lelouch's scruples no matter what. I do agree that Nunally's absence is never good for Lelouch's sanity, but I think many other events in canon, events you brush off as trivial to Lelouch's goals, actually do end up affecting his judgement and his stability. I just happened to take an extreme road, but in canon, I think the death of Shirley's father, the death of Euphy, and a few other events like Saitama and Narita do contribute to a less stable Lelouch over the course of the series-- a Lelouch that make less and less good, moral decisions (if he made any at all, one might argue!).

5. Your belief that Lelouch is straight, and to write him otherwise is a flaw in characterization. // The second issue which is also great, is that Lelouch really and truly was straight as an arrow.

This is something that made me angry, to be honest. I gnashed my teeth a little and reminded myself that you probably do not mean this unkindly. Well, I hope you are not opposed to homosexuals in general. I will assume you are a decent human being and move on.

I will make these points in my refute:
a. There is a big difference between sexuality and expressions towards gender.
b. There is not enough concrete evidence to irreversibly prove Lelouch swings one way or the other.
c. Sexuality of a a character should not be on par with a key point of character motivation.
d. You were reading the FFnet version. The sex-lite version. Why is the extremely vague and in-concrete mentions of his sexuality even an issue for you?

a. There is a big difference between sexuality and expressions towards gender.

Every single reason you gave for Lelouch being straight... Has NOTHING to do with sexuality. Holding women on high, being motivated by women, and having bad relationships with men... None of this has anything to do with hetero or homosexuality.

Sexuality is not something that can be changed. Say if Lelouch had a good relationship with the men in his life-- that would not mean he is more likely to be gay. If Lelouch had had a bad relationship with women-- this would not make him less straight. Life experiences will not change what sort of pee pees your pee pee likes. It MAY change how you express yourself to certain genders.

Let me give some real-life examples. Say a straight woman is beaten horribly by her husband. This will NOT turn her into a lesbian. She still has the unfortunate and irreversible PHYSICAL attraction to men. However, being beaten by a man may turn her into a "man hater". It's real, it's possible. She may not want to enter into relationships with men after that because she no longer trusts men. But that will not stop her from being physically attracted to men.

Let's get more personal. I myself am like Lelouch in that I do not generally have a good relationship with men. I too have an absent father who did much damage to my poor mother. For the longest time, I had severe issues with men and the male body. I proclaimed far and wide and loud that I liked only women. You could say I was overcompensating. At this time, I weirdly denied or explained away any action or fantasy that evidenced my attraction to men. But the truth is, I AM attracted to men. I AM bisexual, leaning towards gay. There came a point that, despite never having acted on this attraction before and despite being fixed in my mind that I was straight, I could no longer deny my attraction. It is somewhat unfortunate-- even now I have my prejudices against other men, my reservations and my insecurities when dealing with them.

The point is that one can express a pronounced hatred for a gender and still be physically/sexually attracted to that gender/sex. Lelouch may have gentle feelings towards women, but this does not prove irrevocably that he would want to bone women. Lelouch may be at odds with almost every man in his life, but that does not prove irrevocably that he doesn't still want their penis.

b. There is not enough concrete evidence to irreversibly prove Lelouch swings one way or the other.

Lelouch does not canonically show a pronounced sexual interest in either sex. Anyone is free to interpret his sexuality any which way they please. For instance, I watch Lelouch, a teenage male, see a naked woman showering (Kallen) and I watch him look away without even a blush and I think, "GAY." ...but that's just me. I then later see him becoming flustered and wishing for a kiss from a girl (Shirley in R2) and I can see where he is interpreted as straight. I even like me some straight Lelouch sometimes.

I see Lelouch in side materials (which are ambiguously canon, admittedly) become just a little bit too defensive against a flirting Suzaku. I see Lelouch share a bed with a mostly naked woman (C.C.) and not have a single dirty thought.

There are a few sexual-ish scenes in Code Geass, and I find Lelouch's lack of reaction telling. But that's just my interpretation. It is perfectly valid and acceptable to interpret Lelouch as straight. You could even interpret him as slightly homophobic. You could interpret him as bisexual. You could interpret him as asexual, having no sexual feelings for either sex. In short, it is not inherently wrong to write Lelouch as any orientation. Since there is never a super-official canon relationship, or at least none to which Lelouch sexually engages in, then there is no right-or-wrong.

For more information, here is a link to an (extremely long, sorry) discussion on the very subject matter of Lelouch's orientation: http://cgkinkmemeii.livejournal.com/1213.html?thread=909245#t909245
I do not expect you to read this whole thing. Hell, I didn't. But if you want to see where different people come from, here it is.

c. Sexuality of a character should not be on par with a key point of character motivation.

(Excuse me, this is where I let my temper take over.)

You said there were two bigs things wrong with Decayed. That I missed a critical character trait and that I implied that Lelouch may not be 100 % straight.

I do not understand how you can equate the two. Sexuality does not define a person's life even half as much as plots for world domination. If he is written as being bisexual or gay, why is that as important as his actual personality? (Sexuality is not personality.)

d. You were reading the FFnet version. The sex-lite version. Why is the extremely vague and non-concrete mentions of his sexuality even an issue for you?

The original Decayed was 10x gayer than the FFnet version. Suzaku and Lelouch don't even kiss in the FFnet version. In the FFnet version, there is just as much Kallen/Lelouch, Kaguya/Lelouch, Euphy/Lelouch, C.C./Lelouch, and even Lelouch/Nunally as there is Lelouch/Suzaku inclinations. Why ignore all of these implications towards female attraction and zoom in to the strange, vague, barely-touching homosexual implications? The homosexuality is hardly even mentioned in the FFnet version.

I realize I'm being snippy about the question of sexuality... But it genuinely made me angry. I'm not even going to apologize.

How your review helps me:  Some folks genuinely just don't want to read homosexuality. I understand that. So I ask myself: should I cut the Lelouch/Suzaku implications from plot-centered fics all-together? (I do write fics which depend heavily upon the pairing, so it's not like I'll never write it again, far from.) Would the removal of these implications harm the feel of Decayed in particular? And if the removal did not hurt Decayed, and I went ahead with it, I would have to remove all heterosexual implications as well, for absolute fairness and equality. Would the removal of Kaguya/Lelouch, C.C./Lelouch, Kallen/Lelouch, etc, harm Decayed? The removal of Kaguya/Lelouch most definitely would, since it is the most concrete mention. Would it be fair to leave in Kaguya/Lelouch if I removed everyone-else/Lelouch? Your review helps my self-edit thinking process.

6. Your desire to see some of the events in a different setting. // I really rather want to see a story that takes that part especially seriously (not tragically, but seriously).

I am totally up to that. Well, I have a very large project list, but adding more to the "some day" pile never bothers me, particularly. I am always open to challenges/requests. I think I may write a Kaguya/Lelouch(Zero) one day. Anything else you'd like to see?

7. And finally, I will thank you for the compliments you paid me!

What comes after your incredibly broken setup, however, is often simply marvelous.
Your well articulated descent in a spiral towards a wholly believable madness is /excellent/ however.
It's pretty spectacular.
Your story is an interesting and enthralling chain of events
Great writing though.

THANK YOU SO MUCH these parts made me all warm and happy and other fuzzy-cute things. :D That's why I am reallyyyyy hoping I haven't offended you by not agreeing with some things and by the way I approached some of these arguments. Thanks for looking out for me!

If you would like to respond, and I really hope you do, anonymous comments are enabled. Please and thank you!

Comments

[dev-chieftain.livejournal.com]

Personally, I think anyone who considers Suzaku to be less important to Lelouch than Kallen is incapable of viewing comprehension. Lelouch actively uses Kallen so often than I find it hard to believe he has any affection for her at all. I was severely disturbed by his douchebag "fine, you want me? I'm going to fuck you, then" come on to her late in S1 (I think it was?), and the only reason I like Kallen as much as I ended up liking her is that she refused, instead of just going for it because she was that desperate.

Lelouch cares for some people more than others, which is why it's shocking he can be assed to admit to his mistakes. I think it was reviewer who claimed he wasn't very affected by Euphemia's death, an assertion I find laughable. Euphemia's death is the point in the show at which Lelouch is forced to descend into madness and play a far darker hand than he ever planned to. He didn't want to kill her, he didn't want to kill a bunch of Japanese people, and he wanted to turn himself in-- to give up-- at that point. Things went horribly wrong and he had to live with it. I should think Euphemia's grisly death can be easily compared to how Lelouch would react to Suzaku dying, since he felt similarly affectionate for both of them. Especially at the beginning of the show, considering that at the beginning of the show, he and Suzaku haven't had a chance to butt heads and hurt each other yet. That's what makes it the most similar to Euphemia-- if anything, Lelouch wants to protect Suzaku early on, viewing him as an innocent who deserves better treatment than death or to be used as a pawn. They're childhood friends. Whether there's romance or not, that friendship is a single, strong aspect of their relationship that heavily defines how they interact. Season Two Lelouch and Suzaku are much more violent with each other, each angry that the other won't yield, or is willing to do such horrible things to see his own vision of the future realized. I don't doubt that Euphemia's fall from grace, had it not necessitated her immediate death because of it, would have had a similar effect on her psyche (and not just because the writers loved them some depressing falls from grace).

Lelouch's sexuality aside, in my experience, FF.net is where you will find people who take offense at any indication that their bubble does not account for everyone. I used to use the site years ago, and distinctly remember getting backwards complaint/compliments for a story in which two young boys kissed briefly at the end, then ran away from each other, too embarrassed by what they'd done to talk to each other-- the complaints were something along the lines of "the story is beautiful, and really sweet, but the kiss was very out of place, and not acceptable for a G-rating. This should at least be PG, if not PG-13".

Since then, I've always made it very clear that children are allowed to see kisses, so kisses go in G-rated fics even if they are not heterosexual kisses. Only sexy naughty kisses get upgraded, and I upgrade for violence before sex, personally. Since you're dealing with FF.net, I wouldn't be surprised if the homosexual hints bother your reviewer for similar reasons-- somehow, the perspective has come over them that it's unacceptable to have indications of homosexuality in Lelouch's character, because they do not wish to acknowledge that that is a real, possible way for people to live their lives.

Genericrandom replies part one of ?

[(Anonymous)]

So there I was, typing away. I go to post my reply and it says "Fuck you! this is almost three times too big!" so I'll leave a string of replies with numbers, in case they post out of order. This is part one.

Holy hell! What did I just poke with a sharp stick? Xp (just kidding)

I’m glad my review was (mostly) appreciated. And even better that it prompted so much thought.

I certainly can’t take (much) issue with things I myself am at fault for either, so that’s not an issue. People say I’m thoughtless when they’re being nice. “Other people have feelings, you know.” Is another one I’ve heard.

So, since you were kind enough to list things by order, we’ll go by that list again.

1, Ah, yes. “The masses”. I don’t really think anything else needs be said there. Although I’m not sure, did you originally post the “scaled back” version on FFN or was what I read there something that changed later? That point was unclear.

2. So, you got me wondering. It’s been… I don’t even recall how long it’s been since I watched CG. I think I watched it (via fansub) the season it came out, and between cash issues and other things coming out that I hadn’t seen yet I never got around to picking it up (not to mention, I think it was Bandai that brought it over, and their stuff has always been godawful expensive). So, I skimmed over Ep 1 over on CR and lo and behold, you’re right! Or at least, what few points I had the patience to find were accurate so I’ll assume you were right on the other ones. Mea culpa.

I still disagree at that point how much Suzaku meant to him though, because just like you argued it was his finding Suzaku alive again that prevented his downward spiral I would argue that it was finding Suzaku alive again that /started/ a lot of the downward spiral we see in canon. Because before then, it was hazy nostalgia and spotty memories that linked them. Now, I’m sure Lelouch has a better memory then I do (if only because his writers can double back, check previous episodes/check their notes), but I doubt that it’s to the point of being photographic. How many times I’ve gone back to catch up on a fic that I ignored for a while/years only to find it got completed while I wasn’t looking or a show I stopped watching half-way through only to find out that what was /awesome/ back in the day in all reality actually sucked? …yeah.

However, after reestablishing his connection with Suzaku at Ashford, I think /that’s/ when Suzaku started to become so important to Lelouch. The foundation was certainly built in their childhood, but it wasn’t until they spent time together as young adults that Suzaku started to truly matter to Lelouch as a person. Before that he was a memory connected to better times and perhaps a bit of an ideal.

But regardless, Lelouch was certainly more affected then I recalled.

3. Lelouch is a bastard. Lelouch used Kallen frequently. I think that he had a great deal of faith in her abilities and never used her for something he wasn’t sure she could do though. Not in R1. Although, now that the accuracy of my CG memories have been proven to be less accurate then I’d thought, I’ll agree that I might be less right on this point as well.

4. Oh, he certainly walked a morally slippery slope that led to his eventual ruin. But again, I think that’s because he cut himself off from Nunally to such an extent. I don’t think he’d have gotten himself into nearly as many bad corners had he spent more time around her or included her somehow. And after the Black Knight’s betrayal that ruin became the means to his goal. I think ‘Zero Requiem’ says it all.

Genericrandom replies 2 of ?

[(Anonymous)]

(this first paragraph is part of point four)

At this time, I’ll have to decline to elaborate further because, again, I apparently only remember half of what went on in CG nearly as well as I’d thought, so I’d have to re-watch the show before I could make much more of a statement here. It would all be conjecture and wile mass guessing.

5. I did in fact not mean this unkindly. I doubt I meant it kindly, but it was not meant as a dig or a jab against homosexuals.

a. Brace yourself here, because this is where things might get a bit inflammatory.

Now, here’s the thing. I know that the last time I paid attention, ‘scientists’ were going around saying that sexual preference is a biological and psychological condition and not a choice. Everybody’s pretty much born liking sausage or taco and that’s that.

Yeah. Well, sorry. I call bullshit.

I also call bullshit on everything else that the so called ‘scientific community’ has to say. I have respect for the physical sciences alone, and even that is tempered by a great deal of suspicion and taken with a pound of salt. Which… is that good or bad for you right now? Salt? I know I just heard eggs were out again after being good for you for about the last eight years after being bad since before I paid attention to that.

Scientists are people looking out to make sure they can collect their next paycheck. They’re also biased. Now I myself am not a part of any scientific community, but the last time I talked to people that were, they said that they had ‘set out to find proof for their theory’. Well, great, but that’s not how I was taught to do it. You’re supposed to come without any theory at all, or if you have one, you’re supposed to set out with an eye to /dis/prove your theory. Otherwise, it’s just a bias searching for supporting evidence. There’s an exception to almost every rule, and if you look long enough and try hard enough you can even find a group of exceptions to put together for your studies and claim you’ve been ‘through and unbiased’. You don’t even have to be consciously aware of sabotaging your own results.

You will always find what you’re looking for if you’re trying to find something specific and you keep looking. ‘You’ might not find it before you die, but you’ll find people that’ll agree with you and keep looking after you die if nothing else. I remember hearing about a time science said the world just had to be flat! And that it was the /sun/ that orbited the /earth/.

I believe that at the end of the day, people are who and what they choose to be. Whether that’s gay or straight, happy or sad, rich or poor, criminals or law abiding citizens, healthy or sick even if they faithful or cheat or if they’re abusive rapists or virtuous saints.

I know of one psychologist, naturally he was one of those right wing fundamentalist christian types that ‘regular’ shrinks (Yeah, I have no respect for them either, psychologists) who would say that the reason you’re bisexual leaning towards gay is because of your poor relationship with your father and that your interest in men stems from your latent desire to receive love and approval from your father. I can’t remember who he was for the life of me, it was part of a radio show I don’t think I ever caught the name of from… years ago (I’m not even sure how many, perhaps more then ten?). Do I agree with him? I think there’s a fair basis in what he’s got to say and I’m certain he did a lot of research and case studies to prove his theory.

And I’ve already covered what I think about theories and scientists looking to prove them.

Genericrandom replies part three of ?

[(Anonymous)]

(again, it truncated my point!)

Can people be biologically gay? I’m absolutely certain that there are people out there that for one reason or another are biologically predisposed to such, sure. I also believe that there are people out there that contain chemical imbalances in their heads that have them convinced they are birds. I even once met a guy who was convinced that your cell phone camera always runs and reports things to the government. My thought was “Okay… that almost makes sense. After all, how else could it be that after all of this time we /still/ don’t have better batteries for phones and computers and the like? But even so, hooking two comparable devices up to a UPS battery back up with a comparable battery the drain rates are consistent, so while I’d like to blame my phone’s battery life on the government spying on me, I just don’t think batteries are awesome enough to support that yet.” I think that science is pretty ridiculous and until people actually go about researching things scientifically that anyone that pays more then a passing attention to it is equally ridiculous. If you look for something, you’ll find something. That’s why most if not all of the most profound and most natural discoveries were accidental.

So, point 5.a I disagree with.

Point 5.b, I’ll agree with however. Hm, going over the points you’ve raised… perhaps it would be more apt to say that Lelouch is fairly Asexual if he’s anything. I know that I like to read about him when he’s straight because I identify with him better.

I know that I’ve in the past, managed to categorize people as being ‘not sexual’. You don’t blush about seeing the dog naked, or sleeping in a bed with the talking lizard with a woman’s voice after all. Lelouch was capable of massive amounts of compartmentalization… but I can’t really argue this point without looking for the points I want to prove and finding evidence for them.

The only thing that jumps to mind is that if Lelouch was as sought after as it’s occasionally implied, then he’d have a lot more experience dealing with a girl approaching him sexually then a man. And Lelouch, who likes to be in control would certainly be more flustered by being out of control then anything else. And even if it wasn’t perhaps his “legions of fans” he had plenty of experience dealing with a woman’s sexuality thrown in his face just dealing with Milly.

He /is/ however, as I would say his Zero costume supports, supremely image conscious. I can’t see being gay as being a good thing in either Britannian society or nobility and most emphatically not in the royalty. Not in a place and a society that was all about superiority and if your genes are superior you have a duty… no, the /privilege/ to pass them on. I also have no doubt that royal insect (the meeting and merging of two sets of eminently superior genes) was if not actively encourage it was likely suspiciously not discouraged and infinitely better then being gay in CG’s Royal Britannian family.

Genericrandom replies! Part 4 of 5?

[(Anonymous)]

(aka part "fuck you, livejournal, fuck you.")

c. Hm. “/Sexuality of a character should not be on par with a key point of character motivation./” I’ll generally agree, except in matters where sex /is/ a point of a character’s motivation. Actually, the more I consider this the more I’m forced to disagree. Too many people in history and fiction have moved for sex. Helen of Troy’s face launched an army on an invasion. There was an (admittedly campy and fairly cheesy) manga called… I think it was called /Ral Grado/ where the whole point of the guys actions was boobs. It’s widely agreed that even if John F. Kennedy didn’t get elected /solely/ because he looked good on TV he likely would not have been able to win if he didn’t (as his opponent was an older and much more experienced statesman).

d. Because your subtext was as blatant as it was obvious, starting from the summary and carried out throughout most of the story? Because judging by what you’d already written I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that right before Lelouch ate Suzaku’s flesh that he’d fucked Suzaku ‘back’ to death in his pseudo mind-fuck afterlife?

I miss a lot of subtexts in life and in visual works, but I have a much stronger connection to words and I miss a lot less (certainly not nothing, I’m much to self absorbed to pay enough attention to anything to catch all of it) when something’s written out then I do when it’s not. In fact, I initially thought you were a slightly atypical yaoi fanwoman who slashed everything she saw due to the heavy emotional context of your writing. (What’s wrong with two guys being friends? Where has all the bromance gone? Must it always be about UST?) The fact that you are primarily into men comes as no surprise at all, it was fairly apparent in your writing. Now perhaps it’s stereotypical (that’s cool, I’ve got nothing against stereotypes) but you being a guy was more surprising because of how deeply you focused on emotions in your writing. But that’s my opinion.

The other reason it mattered? It genuinely felt tacked on a lot of the time. That’s something I didn’t put my finger on until later, actually. I thought the story was going really strong and then you’d delve into this pointless homo-erotic-angst when self-flagellating loathing would have worked much better. It was the difference between an intellectual’s self hate and a sexually insecure teenager’s angst. The latter tastes like… flat soda and mentos. The former reminds me more of fava beans and huma--monkey brains with a nice Chianti on the side.

I’m not saying this because I didn’t like the segments (I didn’t really care) but because I feel that they were an quick and easy route that could have gone a lot further in greater depth into a truly depressing work of darkness that I would have loved to read.

Am I sorry that it made you angry? Not particularly, to think that my reviews could move an author as much as their stories occasionally move me is great! Although that thrill is tempered by the fact that I really just got ‘lucky’ and hit a hot switch, which kills a lot of the enjoyment. It wasn’t thought of an attack or meant as an attack so to know that rather than getting you ‘genuinely’ riled up on the merits of something /I/ did/said it was more of a rote reaction (though certainly that makes the offence you feel no less genuine) that was just brought about because I hit a sore spot … is disappointing.

Still, you handled it pretty well and gave me lots of food for thought.

So, in closing, first off, turns out I don’t remember CG nearly as well as I thought which calls large swaths of my review into question. Another ep I went back and watched parts of is the one where Zero’s geass goes berserk and how he was actually crying as he ordered Euphemia’s death. So there’s another point I was wholly off base with. I think, before I make another review that makes so many statements about CG and its characters and their motivations I need to watch the show again. Sorry about that.

Genericrandom replies part 5 of 5

[(Anonymous)]

(and this goddamn better be the end livejournal, this goddamn well better be.)


And now with that said, going back and re-reading parts of my review, I think I tried to type out four different trains of thought and two and seventeen-eights survived. I /could/ cop out and apologize for that but if I did, I’d basically be apologizing for reviewing, because while it’s clear to me I should have re-read the whole damn thing from start to finish I know that if I’d taken the time to seriously edit it for that last drop of consistency and to clarify a few points, I’d have gotten bored (and too tired) to finish it up and make sense with what I was saying and just not bothered to review at all.

Which is a mistake I’m going to repeat with this, because I’ve been sitting in this goddamn chair for more then two hours at this point between reading your reply and skimming CG eps and typing and my ass hurts and my knees hurt and I’ve got a crick in my neck.

Now, since I can’t be sure that after this it won’t be someone else posting as me, if you wanna continue this conversation, send me a PM over at FFN and I’ll reply with my email address and we can keep going. You’re more than welcome to post the contents of those emails (in whole) here, but I’ve got a once upon a time about anonymous replies and… yeah. Plus, I’m just too lazy to get an account I can use to post here as me so we both know it’s actually me.

And also, because I'm far too pedantic to ever make a long LJ reply again in ever.

Until next time!

[snowdevil-crow.livejournal.com]

Oh, man, that review. NGL I actually facepalmed when I got to the "Lelouch is straight as an arrow" part.

[rex-sun.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah. The straight is strong in this one.

[dev-chieftain.livejournal.com]

If I was home, I'd add that fabulous lingerie pic with Lelouch in drag and all the sexy ladies! But alas, I can only nod in agreement with your sentiment.

[yinake.livejournal.com]

What leaves me aghast about this is that such an eloquent person can spout such baseless homophobic bullshit. This must be the best-written garbage I've read in a while.

[rex-sun.livejournal.com]

Hey, that's what I thought, y'know?! XD

[yinake.livejournal.com]

It's so well-written that you're like, "Now come on, surely s/he can't be saying what I think s/he is because that would just be moronic but the word choice is not a moron's!" and then you read on until you're like, "Yeah okay, no. Can't really talk this any better."

[rex-sun.livejournal.com]

...also, Yina, where the heck have you been? This post is from, like, a MONTH ago.

[yinake.livejournal.com]

I just haven't been using LJ much! Then I saw your post on Naruto and I was like, "Well nope, can't comment on Naruto" so I looked at your LJ to see if I could comment on something else.

[rex-sun.livejournal.com]

Because you miss me. And you're in love with me. And you just gotta talk to me.

RIGHT?! Y/y???

[yinake.livejournal.com]

I kind of felt like I needed to drop in by my wife's for a duty fuck before I vanished again.

[rex-sun.livejournal.com]

Why am I the wife?!?!

WHO THE FUCKING FUCK ARE YOU FUCKING ON THE SIDE

WHY DO YOU SMELL LIKE BOOZE AND CHEAP WHORES